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The Mentoring Room - Ask the Working Pros

This is a Public Topic geared towards first-time filmmakers. Professional members of The D-Word will come by and answer your questions about documentary filmmaking.

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Erica Ginsberg
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Matt, presume you already know most of Pare Lorentz' work:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~1930s/FILM/lorentz/front.html

Dean, wish I could offer you advice beyond the great ideas others have already shared here. I actually transcribe my own films...which is one of many reasons they take so long. I don't do it out of thriftiness alone but also because it makes me more familiar with the nuances of the material. What you may want to do with all your footage is to do a first look-through and jot down notes of key quotes you like maybe with a system of keywords (your "subject x"). Then narrow that down to the tapes you know you want to use and give that to a professional transcriber.


Darla Bruno
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

I'm back . . . well, not really back . . . I'm shooting this week and next, and things are going really well so far. Better than I could expect, yet there are things I didn't anticipate, like how hard it is to direct when you don't speak the language!

So, now that I'm working in a context, I need to revisit a question I posted a few weeks back. I'm shooting in small village in Italy and while the Italian spoken here is not necessarily dialect, it's . . . well, it's its own thing.

But my dilemma was that my DP goes back to Milan when we're finished, and I go back to the States. I'd like to begin editing when I get back but I'll need to hire someone fluent in Italian (and especially astute to pick up this particular Italian spoken here).

How does it work with you're shooting in a language that's not your own in terms of translation? How does the editor work in another language?

I'm back to wondering if I should just work with my DP on this – like stop the shoot a few days early and sit with him and edit (it's the only way we can be together) (otherwise, he goes back to work the day after the shoot is over) . . . or do I go back to the States and find an Italian-English speaking editor?

We'll have about 20 hours of footage on PAL (we don't need to go into that again).

Thanks!


Doug Block
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Darla, why not simply find someone who understands the dialect to help you make english transcripts from the footage? Plenty of editors cut footage referencing the transcripts but without speaking the language.


Darla Bruno
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Good idea, Doug. That's what I'm thinking – so I'm going to ask a very basic question now. . . how would I do that? Give them the footage? Sit down with them? Would they type it out? Record it (so essentially it would be like dubbing?)


Boyd McCollum
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Darla, I've edited extensively in Chinese and my grasp of the language is really poor so I've come up with a method that works for me (and your mileage may vary).

Not sure what system you're using, I use FCP, but this method should work in other NLEs. I put each captured tape or clip in its own sequence. I then go into the Text Generator and select Outline Text. You may want to spend a little time here playing with the font, size, and outline. Don't make it too big or too small. And watch your placement in the canvas – you want to stay title safe.

I then drop that onto track 2. I try to work in small increments, with 3 seconds being about average. In longer sentences, I could have 2 or 3 or more text clips. On the timeline, these are very easy to duplicate with Option+drag. If there is more than one speaker, I dedicate separate tracks for each one. I try to stay with one line, maybe two lines of text, but never more than 2 lines per subtitle.

I start each text clip on the frame they start speaking, and end it on the frame they end speaking. While that's not what I'd necessarily do for the final subtitling, it's important for the initial edit.

The text generator is very graphics intensive and I find after about 10 minutes or so, each clip needs to render and my computer starts running slow. At this point, I'll split up the clip (depends on how long your captured media is).

The last thing I'll add is the TC reader. Once that's in, I'll export each sequence out as a QT movie. Then I"ll reimport that movie back into the project. I now have my translation on the media and I can edit it like any other dialogue footage. I don't need to reference back to a paper translation and try to figure out which word means what.

As I near a fine cut, using the time code on the QT files, I can go back to the original sequences, and cut in the original footage with the subtitles. Again, depending on how many subtitles you have, this may be graphics intensive. For my last project that was 45 minutes long and had a ton of subtitles, I created sequences for each chapter, then nested them, so my main sequence had 9 nests in it.

Some additional thoughts. You may want to have more than one translator look at your footage. There are subtleties in language that are really important in editing. What a person says and what a person means can be two different things and a straight translation often doesn't help you with that. Speaking only for myself, I base a lot of editing decisions, and story development, on the meaning and subtext of the words, not only on the words themselves.

The other part of this equation is that a verbatim translation may be disjointed in English, so there is a trick to constructing the English phrasing, that sounds good, with good word choices, that is faithful to what was actually said. It depends how good the translator is, and how fluent they are in both languages.

Anyways, just one workflow option. May not be the best, but it works for me.


Paul Hayes
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Can anyone recommend digital production software for a PC. Adobe and Avid seem to be the top of the line. I'm a newcomer, so maybe I'd be able to get by with a prosumer version, before moving on to the higher level professional grade stuff.

I suppose the most important features would be multiple video/audio track import and editing (with storyboard interface) and a comprehensive selection of web conversion tools.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Darla,

Whoever writes your translation needs to transcribe the material exactly as you'd do if it were in English. This means that you need to write the timecode corresponding to the begininng of each sentence (or paragraph, then you write the text corresponding to the sentence or paragraph and immediately after you write the timecode corresponding to the end of this bite of dialogue/commentary.

In this manner, your editor has the "in" and "out" points for each sentence/paragraph just as she/he would if they were editing in English, so it makes no difference at all.

This is a sample of a transcript in Italian of commentary by actor/director Nanni Moretti (he's telling a story in a theater in Pescara (from a documentary of mine about Nanni Moretti).

MORETTI A PESCARA 1/3

00.12 Allora… Io proverò a raccontare il mio rapporto con la politica… Poi […] mi interromperò tra un pò quando arriverà Luciano D’Alfonso per il suo saluto. Proverò a raccontare il mio rapporto con la politica in questi ultimi trent’anni, naturalmente soffermandomi di più sull’ultimo anno e mezzo che, imprevedibelmente soprattutto per me- mi ha visto in prima persona persona impegnarmi in politica… Non me lo sarei mai aspettato da me stesso… 00.54

00.54 … Ecco quindi incomincerò molto da lontano, andrò molto veloce… Naturalmente anche… E andrò veloce anche perchè il mio rapporto con la politica è stato così… Intermittente come quello di tanti cittadini, a volte più interessati, a volte meno… A volte delusi, a volte impegnati in prima persona… 1.18

1.20 …Ecco, il sessantotto –credo che molti di voi siano nati dopo il sessantotto- il sessantotto è arrivato un pò troppo presto per me, io ho fatto politica un pò a scuola… gli ultimi tre anni di liceo dal ‘70 al ’72. Nel sessantotto la mia giornata tipo era la mattina a scuola dove abbastanza mi annoiavo… 1.50

1.50 …Il pomeriggio al cinema Nuovo Olimpia, che era un cinema d’Essai molto famoso a Roma – ogni giorno cambiava film, vecchi film, classici… – e la sera in piscine: giocavo a pallanuoto… Tra parentesi: la mia ultima partita di pallanuoto l’ho giocata proprio qui a Pescara nell’estate dell’86, chiusa parentesi. 2.13

2.13 Ecco quindi questa era la mia giornata tipo nel ’68 e… Diciamo che ho cominciato un pò a interessarmi… Un pò a fare politica qualche anno dopo: gli ultimi due o tre anni di liceo. E devo dire che almeno per quanto riguarda così la…La Sinistra extra-parlamentare di cui io facevo parte… 2.41

Here's an example of a transcript in English (from my documentary on The Transition).

Wilton Wynn – part 1

00.28 WOLF: Ok, go ahead Wilton…

00.30 WYNN: I was in the piazza the evening that Pope John died, watching his window, and the contrast – he was very loved, as you know: a lovable Pope, very popular… he had been ill a long time and now he died, but… There was a crowd in the corner of the Piazza- …Nothing, nothing… Nothing to compare with the vigils over there during John Paul’s last illness as a reflection of the tremendous impact of the person, of the man…

1.35 WOLF: You were mentioning that with the death of JPII something changed in your life too, what exactly were you talking about?

2.04 WYNN: Well… I’ve been a newsman for more than forty years, a foreign correspondent. I retired twenty years ago but I’ve continued to keep an eye on things and to do some writings, contributions to different magazines. But my last great story was Pope John Paul the Second and with his death, that brought an end to my career. That was it.

2.35 There is nothing more. I don’t follow things as a newsman anymore, I read the newspapers and watch tv, but I’m not there myself, I’m not in contact myself with these news sources. And I hadn’t realize that it would make such a difference, but I see it now!

2.58 WOLF: But Pope John Paul made a great difference even in your life. I remember once you told me you became Catholic after covering JPII…

3.11 WYNN: Very interesting… The newspaper USA TODAY at the time of the Pope’s funeral carried, half a page, a story about how an old newsman like me became a Catholic after covering trips of the Pope and getting closer to him. It was… he never tried to convert me, we’ve talked together about his thoughts, his ideas and so on… he never…

3.45 WOLF: Tell me how it happened.

3.48 WYNN: I started with his first trip to Mexico, just two months after he was elected Pope, and you know… I’ve flown with Pope Paul before him – a couple of trips and Pope Paul used to come to the press section of the plain and his secretary would read our name-tags and introduce us and the Pope would say “Happy to have you on board. Thank you. Welcome,” and go on.

4.18 And I’ve wondered “Would this Pope be the same?”, but we heard he was coming back to talk to us. And we all were lined up to meet him, one at a time. I happened to be there, I think I was number 2. When he came in, I didn’t know: should I ask a question or should I just do the greeting? I decided I’ll ask him a question to see if he’s ready to talk.

4.45 I asked an innocuous question: “Would you ever like to visit United States?” He stopped, he looked down at the floor and thought a moment, and then he said: “I think it will be necessary though the date has not yet been set.” 5'00

When you get to the editing stage, you arrange the translated paragraphs of transcript in the desired order just as you'd do if it were English dialogue. You write the tape number and the timecode of every selcted sentence/paragraph, that way, your editor just cuts and pastes each soundbite as though it were English. Working in such fashion, there is no need for you – or the editor – to understand the foreign langueage in which your subjects have spoken.

The "In" and "out" points also give you precise reference points for the beginning and end of corresponding subtitles or translated dialogue.

Herewith you can see a small bit of version 1 of the script of The Transition. In this case, there were 7 different versions of this script, in others there have been many more.

WORKING TITLE: “THE TRANSITION: FROM THE DEATH OF POPE JOHN PAUL II TO THE INSTALLATION OF POPE BENEDICT XVI.”
Copyright by Wolfgang Achtner

FIRST DRAFT: DEC 10, 2005

Thursday, March 31, 2005 – Graphic re Vatican statement

Wilton Wynn 1
17.28 WYNN: At the beginning I thought he would recover, because I had gone through so many of these cases where, [as you say], he would collapse or he would have to be rushed to the hospital. And then there would be days of uncertainty. And then, in the end, he would emerge. And I, somehow, had the feeling he would come through this one, as well. I kept vigil when he was shot back in 1981, I guess it was. Well, we didn’t know then: he was between life and death. And then he went on and on. All his illnesses, his operations, his falls, and so on, 18.12 So that we were kind of used to his going to hospital and having medical bulletins every day, and all that. And then, he’d slowly emerge.

18.24 So, it was of course – as days went by, you know – it became clearer that this probably would be the end. Especially when the Vatican made no secret of the fact that it was extremely serious. But at the beginning I thought he had pulled through.

John Thavis 1
4.30 [I think it was interesting because] even the Vatican, at that point, was preparing everyone for the Pope’s death. And yet as the Pope hang on, for another day or day and-a-half, we in the Vatican press-room began looking at each other and thinking “Is this gonna be another round? Are we going to see him come back to the window one more time perhaps?” Well, it was not to be.

4.56 But the fact is: this Pope bounced back from so many physical adversities that we’d become kind of used to it. And there was a sense, even among reporters – who had been waiting for the end for so many years – that maybe they weren’t there yet.

John Allen part 1
30.26.0 Well, for one thing, John Paul II hadn’t been just suffering in the last 6
months of his life, he’d been suffering for the last several years of his life. f, at all the different times people had written him off, that he had actually gone off the stage, he would have died a thousand deaths. So, I think part of it was, it wasn’t clear until the very very end that this was going to, in fact, be the end. A lot of us who had been tracking this fully expected him, even in February, when he went to the Gemelli, even in March, when he went back, we fully expected that he would pull through and continue. I fully expected to be accompanying him to Cologne, last August. 31.00.04

And so, I think one point is that he, I don’t think that he himself probably understood until 48 hours, 72 hours before his death, that this was, in fact, his final act. This has always been a very determined Pope and so on. Probably, the most fundamental variable here is that John Paul was determined to allow his suffering to play out on the public stage because he saw it as a teaching moment. That is, he thought he understood himself to be teaching the world how to accept death. With grace and with dignity. 31.35.03

John Thavis part 1
2.18 THAVIS: I think really that’s how his entire pontificate was lived. On the world’s stage from the very beginning. And it would not have been in character for him to go and hide behind the curtain in the final stages. I think he also had a spiritual message here and (…) he knew that he was going to be suffering. He knew he had a disease that was going to keep him down, if not out, for several years. And I think he probably made the decision that he would not hide behind the Vatican walls, that he would allow the world to share in this as well as it shared in the early more energetic phase of his pontificate.

John Allen 1
31.35.03 In a culture that worships youth, and worships efficiency, and worships beauty and so on, I think he probably felt that this was a powerful counter example. 31.45.04

Here you can compare – just for your curiosity – the final version of the feature-length version (105 minutes) of the documentary; I also did another 52 mnute version. As a matter of fact, whenever I do a feature-length version of a documentary, I also ALWAYS do a 52 minute version. There are different markets for the different types of durations.

SCRIPT: “THE TRANSITION: FROM THE DEATH OF POPE JOHN PAUL II TO THE INSTALLATION OF POPE BENEDICT XVI.”
© 2006 by Wolfgang Achtner

Attn.: English translation included under original text (in Italian) of homilies.

Crowds in St. Peter’s Square

SUPER: Friday, April 1, 2005

John Irvine, ITV correspondent – standup

IRVINE “Here in St. Peter’s Square, where the Pope so nearly lost his life to an assassin’s bullet,”

SUPER: John Irvine, ITV

IRVINE “at the start of his papacy, there is a growing certainty that that life and that papacy are now growing to a close. A remarkable life, ebbing slowly away, up there, in the papal apartment, where John Paul has lived for the last 26-and-a-half years.”

SUPER Wilton Wynn, Author, “Keepers of the Keys”

WYNN: At the beginning I thought he would recover, because I had gone through so many of these cases where he would collapse or he would have to be rushed to the hospital. And then there would be days of uncertainty. And then, in the end, he would emerge. And I, somehow, had the feeling he would come through this one, as well. I kept vigil when he was shot back in 1981, I guess it was. Well, we didn’t know then: he was between life and death. And then he went on and on. All his illnesses, his operations, his falls, and so on. So that we were kind of used to his going to hospital and having medical bulletins every day, and all that. And then, he’d slowly emerge.

WYNN So, it was of course – as days went by, you know – it became clearer that this probably would be the end. Especially when the Vatican made no secret of the fact that it was extremely serious. But at the beginning I thought he had pulled through.

THAVIS Even the Vatican, at that point, was preparing everyone for the Pope’s death. And yet as the Pope hang on, for another day or day and-a-half, we in the Vatican press-room began looking at each other and thinking “Is this gonna be another round? Are we going to see him come back to the window one more time perhaps?” Well, it was not to be.

ALLEN Well, for one thing, John Paul II hadn’t been just suffering in the last 6
months of his life, he’d been suffering for the last several years of his life. If, at all the different times people had written him off, that he had actually gone off the stage, he would have died a thousand deaths. So, I think part of it was, it wasn’t clear until the very very end that this was going to, in fact, be the end. A lot of us who had been tracking this fully expected him, even in February, when he went to the Gemelli, even in March, when he went back, we fully expected that he would pull through and continue. I fully expected to be accompanying him to Cologne, last August.

ALLEN Probably, the most fundamental variable here is that John Paul was determined to allow his suffering to play out on the public stage because he saw it as a teaching moment. That is, he thought he understood himself to be teaching the world how to accept death. With grace and with dignity.

Crowd at night in St. Peter’s Square

You will notice that in Version 1 there are NO indications regarding video and that's because I've mapped out the video on a separate sheet(s) of paper. After the logging process, I have memorized EVERY SINGLE SHOT – in this particular case it was more than 60 hours of video – and I've written the script in accordance to the rough video outline that I've drawn up indicating how the video should be used.

I have noticed that, as a rule, once I've memorized all the video and transcribed all the dialogue it only takes me a few hours to write the script of the documentary. Once I've written the script, I may later make minor changes in to it in several places (leading to different versions) as I go along, but I've already constructed the documentary in what pretty much corresponds to its final shape.

It can take me 7 to 10 days or up to two-and-a-half weeks to log all the video, but then the first part of the hard work is done. Equally important is obtaining a complete transcript of ALL dialogue. That's the second part of the hard work. Once I have all the transripts, I usually need only one or two days to write the script. As I wrote earlier, the actual writing process only takes me a few hours, once I decide how to use the video. With the video outline in mind I build the script paragraph by paragraph picking form the transcripts of all the dialogues and writing eventual commentary (in those rare cases it might be necessary).

At that point, I can usually edit the first cut of a documentary in under three weeks if I'm in a hurry (I usually edit approximately 10 to 12 hours a day), and – in most occasions – make the final cut in 6 weeks time.

Initially, with regards to the video, I write down a note referring to a rough sequence and once I start editing I cut every sequence in detail, that means I lay out every shot in the desired order.

Usually, I start editing at the beginning, even though the beginning may sometimes change (in certain documentaries it changed several times), and I keep editing on a straight progression towards the end; the end may change itself several times. Actaully, on documentaries where the story is ongoing, I have often continued to shoot after I'd already started editing and usually the end was discovered during this additional shooting phase. In the case of my last documentary, this was true also for the beginning.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Darla,

re translation Boyd wrote:

"Some additional thoughts. You may want to have more than one translator look at your footage. There are subtleties in language that are really important in editing. What a person says and what a person means can be two different things and a straight translation often doesn't help you with that. Speaking only for myself, I base a lot of editing decisions, and story development, on the meaning and subtext of the words, not only on the words themselves.

The other part of this equation is that a verbatim translation may be disjointed in English, so there is a trick to constructing the English phrasing, that sounds good, with good word choices, that is faithful to what was actually said. It depends how good the translator is, and how fluent they are in both languages."

Translation is a vey important item. Working in Italian and/or English I don't have any problem because I'm fluent in both (I write books in both languages). If your grasp of a language is not this good you need to get the best translator you can; it may cost you but it's definitely worth every cent. Unfortuneatly in Italy they always try to save money – but you get what you pay for – so I've heard terrible translations even on important channels like Dicovery or History channel in Italian where the translation completely missed the point.

You need a great translator and this person also needs to know how to write extremely well in English so your English dialoge will be perfect.

What I mean is, one doesn't take liberties with the meanings but you need to render dialogue exacly as if those people were speaking in English themselves.

That means understanding complex sentence constructions that might be the opposite of English, with the verb at the end or vicevresa and it also means understanding complex techncial verbiage (medical or legal) if need be, and last but not least, the abilty to render in proper English the correct equivalent of Italian idiomatic expressions, proverbs, syaings, etc.

Your dialogue in English must be perfect, exactly as if the people had been speaking in English. Get the best, most competent, professional translator you can find!!!


Andrew David Watson
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Question for those producing docs, how much of your work falls under WFH (work for hire)? and how much of your work do you retain copyright too? I'm just trying to figure out (mostly for myself as a freelancer) when work for hire is okay and when i should be demanding better terms. I'm mostly referring to producing a full piece from start to finish. I know work for hire is fairly standard if you are working as a shooter, or editor, but what about when you are doing it all and the original story idea is yours? Does it make a differents who the client is? whether it is a NGO or network? Any insight on this would be great!


Joe Moulins
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Paul...go with Adobe. I'm not sure if they have a Premiere "lite", but if you stay on a PC you'll eventually work with Adobe software. Better to invest your time and energy in one interface that will be the standard for years to come.

Or, this might be the time for you to switch to a Mac....


Christopher Wong
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

wolfgang, i'm sure you've got some very solid advice there for darla, but i think it might be better if you use the "Hide" function next time (especially for the super-long transcripts you included). thx.

andrew, if you are doing signficiantly more than just shooting/editing, but actually directing and producing the entire piece, you should definitely be demanding better terms than your normal work-for-hire rates. that could be whatever you negotiate (e.g. back-end points). of course, your client always has the option of saying "no", so be prepared to respond appropriately... if they don't want to give you a share of the project, then ask for a higher dayrate.


Monica Williams
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

I'm getting ready to buy my first Mac. Some have told me that a macbook will suffice for what I want to do, which is basically to gather and store footage and images for my editor and eventually work on a rough-cut for him. Others say that I should invest in a macbook pro. Since I'm not the editor, would anyone like to weigh in on why I might need a pro in the future?

Thanks!


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Chris,

Thanks. I wasn't sure how the hide feature works. What do you do? Just click Hidden section?


Joe Moulins
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

The basic Macbook works fine as a FCP machine if you're working with DV and/or HDV material. I have a first generation Macbook set up with an external keyboard and trackpad, and a 24 inch Dell monitor. It's much faster than a 3 year old G5 workstation, and feels very close to the Mac Pro for most functions.

But Motion won't run on it, and it doesn't have a card slot or Firewire 800 so expansion possibilities are somewhat limited.


Doug Block
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

Wolfgang, simply click on the "Add hidden section" link below the text box.

Show hidden content

Christopher Wong
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

what doug said, wolfgang. clicking "add hidden section" will open up a new text box for you – everything that goes in it will be hidden. everything in the normal text box will still be visible to all.


Matt Dubuque
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

In reply to Doug Block's post on Tue 29 Jan 2008 :

Thanks Doug... I'll check out the Grapes of Wrath again (great flick!) and I've added Sullivan's Travels to my Netflix queue.

Your mention of Grapes of Wrath reminds me once again of

Show hidden content
Edited Wed 30 Jan 2008 by Matt Dubuque

Matt Dubuque
Wed 30 Jan 2008Link

In reply to Erica Ginsberg's post on Wed 30 Jan 2008 :

Darla, I've seen The Plow that Broke the Plains, but I have yet to see what is generally regarded as his greatest work, The River. Now I will, thanks to you!

Thanks for the link!

Show hidden content
Edited Wed 30 Jan 2008 by Matt Dubuque

Wolfgang Achtner
Thu 31 Jan 2008Link

Sorry about that guys,

since I actually don't like writing that much, I'd only intended to knock out two sentences re translations, then the keyboard just went on by itself....


Darla Bruno
Thu 31 Jan 2008Link

Yes, well, I appreciate these explanations. I understand better now. Seems my dp would be the best translator, since his Italian is great and his English is excellent (and he gets the meaning of what these people – older people in a remote village often speaking in proverbs, etc...) are saying. But I don't know that I'm going to have him actually edit b/c after we finish shooting, I go back to NYC and he goes to Milan. I think it would be offensive to ask him to log/translate (obviously I'd pay him) but not edit . . . so I'm a little stuck. Well, not stuck. Just feeling in a bind. We're here for 10 more days and we've got a lot of good material (and information) already. I want to cut a trailer to enter into a grant/contest for April 1, so just wondering if I should cut our shoot like 4 days short and translate/log . . . edit . . . with him . . . (for the trailer, perhaps). I can still come home with all my footage and work with another editor down the road. This is only going to be about 20 hours of footage . . .


Christopher Wong
Thu 31 Jan 2008Link

unless your DP is very unusual, he shouldn't object to doing the logging and translating with you (and not the edit). he might object to logging and translating in general, but he'll certainly understand that you need to edit this locally back in NYC.

one thing to keep in mind is that logging and translating almost 20 hours of footage (or even 10 hours) will take a LONG, LONG time. for every 1 hour of footage, i would estimate at least 4 hours to turn that footage into a transcribed, translated, timecoded document – and i believe that is a very conservative estimate.


Wolfgang Achtner
Thu 31 Jan 2008Link

Darla,

If he is willing, you could ask your DP to do the transcriptions and translations for you. There is no need for him to log the tapes to do this. Otherwise, you might find someone else in Italy.

As I explained in a previous post, you should do the logging of all the tapes WITH the editor with whom you are going to edit your documentary because you BOTH need to be aware of all the video.

This way you'd only need to copy onto VHS tapes or a DVD with burnt in timecode (in order to be able to transcribe beginning end ending times for each sentence/paragraph) the tapes (or sections there of) with the interviews. You'd still need to capture this material onto a computer – and this takes place in real time – but you could return home with the tapes and your DP or whoever will be doing the transcription and translation could work at it over here and then e-mail you the finished transcripts.


Erica Ginsberg
Fri 1 Feb 2008Link

Darla, if you can afford a professional translator, that would be your best bet. It really is an art and the challenge with working with someone who doesn't do this is that it can go much more slowly and either not accurate enough or too accurate.

With Crucible of War, we had a lot of material, so split the translations of the transcripts between the director (who did speak the language while the editor didn't), two student friends, and two professional linguists. The quality of the translations was best with the two professionals, followed by the students followed by the director. He was simply too close to the material and his translations took a painstakingly slow amount of time and were too literal in text. Once we got to the point of editing, we brought in one of the professional linguists to work with us on the subtitles, both to help the editor get the cuts exactly right, improve the linguistic construction, and dare to lose some of the exact words to fit the space and still retain the meaning.


Darla Bruno
Fri 1 Feb 2008Link

Since we're specifically on the subject of translation – can someone give me an idea of price ranges (per hour, I assume) . . . and were you finding that it's about 4 hours per 1 hour of footage?

Also, do I need it written first in Italian, and then translated to English, or just written in English? I assume both.

Finally, the thing with my DP is that he really loves these people, and their stories, and he knows the context for some of the wacky things they're saying . . . so while he may not be a professional translator, I think he might offer some good insight. Perhaps I can just ask him to do the work (instead of cutting our shoot short, I'd probably send him back to Milan with DVD copies) and then have it looked over by a professional translator.


Boyd McCollum
Fri 1 Feb 2008Link

Maybe your DP can do the Italian translation with notes, then you can have that transcribed here in the states.


Darla Bruno
Sat 2 Feb 2008Link

Sounds good, Boyd . . . (Maybe I'm just tired) but can you spell this out for me a little more? So he'd write everything out in English? And then . . .

Edited Sat 2 Feb 2008 by Darla Bruno

Wolfgang Achtner
Sat 2 Feb 2008Link

Darla,

You need to transcribe the dialogues first in Italian so you have a record of what was really said and also to allow another translator to check the translation (if necessary).


Boyd McCollum
Sat 2 Feb 2008Link

Darla, along with what Wolfgang said, your DP would also be able to annotate the "wacky" things your subjects are saying (either in Italian or English). This is especially important if they are speaking in a less common vernacular.

Another workflow would be to do your translations first, and then send them to your DP to review and annotate. I remember reading that they did a similar thing on the English/Chinese translation of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, where they would send the translations back and forth between China and the US, constantly tweaking to get the best translation they could.


Lucia Duncan
Wed 6 Feb 2008Link

I'm looking for advice about how to film a scene that shows a group of tourists flying to a remote destination to do whale-watching. I'm thinking of doing this in two parts. First, filming the tourists in the plane looking out the window. Second, flying in a plane with no tourists, so I can ask the pilot to circle around a couple times in order to film the ocean/desert below. (Am I being unrealistic in thinking I could get this right in a couple of takes?) I'm shooting with a Panasonic DVX100b, 24P. Would appreciate any suggestions.


Erica Ginsberg
Wed 6 Feb 2008Link

How long does it take the plane to drive over the interesting land/seascape? Could you not save yourself time and presumably money by shooting both shots on the same trip by getting yourself a window seat for the beauty shots and then standing up to shoot the tourists looking out the window? Or shooting the tourists on your way in and the land/seascape on the way out?

Edited Wed 6 Feb 2008 by Erica Ginsberg

Matt Dubuque
Wed 6 Feb 2008Link

Let's say this takes place in Baja California, which has a mix of whales, desert and water. Would you consider renting a seaplane for the second portion where you give the grand overview of the whole scene?

If you are in fact doing it in Baja, you could probably charter one at a reasonable price out of Loreto and you would get some amazing footage, shot from a lower altitude.

Just a thought.


Peter Brauer
Thu 7 Feb 2008Link

On Second Skin, whenever we traveled to a location via plane, we shot tons of stuff out the window. Several of our characters took flights during the movie, so this stuff was really useful. You can get a lot out of airliner windows, especially right before landing and right after take off.

The whales raising young in baja are something everyone should see first hand. Talk about an animal that makes you want to save the world.


Lucia Duncan
Thu 14 Feb 2008Link

Thanks for the suggestions regarding aerial shots. Here's a sound question. I've been shooting with a relatively inexperienced boom operator. When I still had access to school equipment we used a breakaway cable between the camera and the boom/headphones. How do those of you who do not use a mixer allow for boom op and camera op to monitor sound? I have a cheap 8 pin splitter and I've thought of getting a 8 pin female/male stereo cable that would serve as an extension to my boom op's headphones. But I'm afraid the splitter might reduce sound a lot and the cables may cut out. I've been reluctant to use a mixer because I think it's a lot for the inexperienced boom op to handle. Would love to know how others handle this.


Kevin Morrow
Fri 15 Feb 2008Link

Hey, everybody. I'm a freelance photo researcher trying to find work in the documentary film industry. Can anyone think of a good way to find work of this sort? Even trying to find listings of documentary film companies is difficult, because they are usually in password-protected members-only sections of websites for various professional organizations whose membership dues are in the three figures!


John Burgan
Fri 15 Feb 2008Link

Welcome Kevin. You might like to check out Docs in Progress , a Washington DC initiative started by D-Worders Adele Schmidt & Erica Ginsberg.


Kevin Morrow
Fri 15 Feb 2008Link

Thanks for the good tip! I just talked to Adele Schmidt at Journeyfilms, and she was very helpful.


Susan Hoskins
Fri 15 Feb 2008Link

Legal Question: We sent out an announcement for our documentary premiere and have received a request from a University Library for a library order. We licensed all our clips, photos and music. Can we sell our dvd now? What else do we need to do?


Erica Ginsberg
Sat 16 Feb 2008Link

John, thanks for the plug. Kevin, glad you talked to Adele. Docs In Progress actually has an event tomorrow night at Busboys & Poets and would love to see you there. In the Intro topic, I also suggested some other DC-area organizations which would be worth the membership dues for you.


Matt Dubuque
Sat 23 Feb 2008Link

Has anyone read the book:

Kino-Eye: The Writings of Dziga Vertov?

It's at:

http://tinyurl.com/yrb48k

I just read a short passage from one of Vertov's articles he wrote for Film Truth magazine that was excerpted in Documentary: A History of the Non-Fiction film by Erik Barnow, an awesome book written by the fellow who used to be Chief of the Library of Congress Motion Picture Division.

The passage that I read of Vertov (about 500 words) was a real revelation for me. Amazing!

I don't think I can obtain copies of the magazine (because it is from the 1920s and probably in Russian as well), so I wanted to ask if anyone here was familiar with this book.

It's a bit pricey, so I thought I'd ask around before purchasing it.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Edited Sat 23 Feb 2008 by Matt Dubuque

John Burgan
Sun 24 Feb 2008Link

Definitely worth checking out. You can find second-hand copies via http://www.abebooks.com/


Fredric Lean
Sun 24 Feb 2008Link

Hello,
what would be the best options in terms of camera to shoot a shoestring budget feature length documentary which requires a lot of outdoor shootings following a subject discreetly in different local public places and some indoors for interviews- (pretty much guerilla/ news style)?

here are the options:
-Panasonic DVX 100b
-Panasonic AG-HVX200(P2 cards + camera =outside our budget range-unless somone knows a great place to buy it cheap)
- Sony HDR-FX1 (someone told me good but not so great)
-Sony HVR-A1U
-Sony HVR-Z1U

now i have been told, since the film style will be pretty much hidden camera style (almost) , to use may be a high end HD consumer camera so i can hide it even in pocket.
does anyone know anything about the quality of these cameras below:
-Panasonic HDC-HS9 (HD & 24p)
Canon HV20 HDV (HD & 24p)
Panasonic AG-HSC1
Sony HDR-CX7

any suggestions or help?

thank you


Joe Moulins
Sun 24 Feb 2008Link

for a no-budget production I'd go with the Canon HV20, recording sound to a separate recorder.
Something like this . There may be better audio recorders for the price, but any of these recorders should give you better sound than you'd get with any of those camcorders.
If and when you move up to a better camera, the audio recorder will still be a good and useful tool.

Add a wireless mic and you'll have a kick-ass guerilla kit for half the price of a z1U.


Chris Hinrichs
Mon 25 Feb 2008Link

In reply to Chris Hinrichs's post on Mon 28 Jan 2008 : Hello all! Some of you may remember me from the post linked above. For those of you who are interested or have some time to kill, I have overhauled my presentation, using some of the suggestions I recieved here. In order not to clutter up the Mentoring Room, I'll hide the rest of my message...

Show hidden content

Andrew David Watson
Mon 25 Feb 2008Link

Does anyone know of any job websites just for documentary projects? i have picked up a number of freelance gigs from sites like www.mandy.com www.mediamatch.com and local Craig's List but am looking for more documentary specific jobs. Thanks!


Matt Dubuque
Thu 28 Feb 2008Link

Thanks John, I just bought it! Abebooks (which is now my first place to look!) also had this awesome "The Man With the Movie Camera The Man with the Movie Camera: A Cinematic Analysis by Vlada Petric that has an incredible scene by scene analysis of Vertov's timeless masterpiece.

Now I'm just trying to find a copy of Vertov's "One Sixth of the World". I'll keep looking!


Le Sheng Liu
Fri 29 Feb 2008Link

Andrew, you can also try RealityStaff.com http://www.realitystaff.com/home/index.php?section=JOBS&left=Jobs

Their focus is on reality shows, which overlaps with documentary/television. Hope that helps. I have been looking for documentary-specific job sites myself and that is the best I have come across. I am also browsing Craiglist, mediamatch, and Mandy everyday!!! Good luck with ya. It's a tough world out there finding work!!


Andrew David Watson
Fri 29 Feb 2008Link

thanks Le Sheng, do you ever check http://www.entertainmentcareers.net/jcat.asp?jcat=109

There are some alright jobs on there from time to time.


Le Sheng Liu
Sat 1 Mar 2008Link

Haven't been on there in a long time. Do they charge a subscription fee? That might be one of the reasons I don't go there. MediaMatch does too but I get the $5/month student membership.


Brian Boyko
Sun 2 Mar 2008Link

This is an ethics question.

I'm finding that I've got great interviews but as my subject is really explaining an electoral system (I.e., the "Inconvenient Truth" model) rather than documenting a series of events (I.E., the "Super Size Me" model) I wanted to ask you about the ethics of truth and such.

What I'd like to do create a "frame" around the footage that I've gathered that is essentially a parody of "An Inconvenient Truth" I'd basically rent-out or borrow a classroom with projector on the weekend, and invite my improv comedian friends to be "feeding" me questions. I would make it obvious that the audience is portrayed by actors – first with a disclaimer up front which states: "While the subject is truthful, the audience portrayed in the film are paid actors."

Then during the shooting, I was actually thinking that the first question would be along the lines of: "Yeah, Brian, you said that if we came here and pretended to be an audience that is actually interested in this stuff that you'd give us 20 bucks." (Interruption from the back) "And cake! Where's the cake?!"

Is it ethical to make a documentary with obviously staged scenes to increase the entertainment value and, supposedly, to get more people interested in it, without crossing the line into "mockumentary?"


Fredric Lean
Sun 2 Mar 2008Link

SOUND HELP for documentary shooting on Canon HV20.

Has anyone had shot a doc on canon HV20 or knows well the camera?

I went to a store in NY specialized in video. I told them i needed a broadcast quality sound for the consumer HV20 Canon. it's for a doc , reality TV like.
The shooting style will be handheld mostly. On person crew (so no boom) and only one person (the subject) can be wired up but I still need to pick up the sound of people the subject will be talking too. So i will also need a shotgun mic i presume.
There''ll be indoor and outdoor (public places) shoot.
Here's the package the seller at the store, came up with:

Sennheiser EW 100 wireless lavaller $500 +tax
Beachtek XLR $179
Rode NTG 2 shotgun $269
Headphones $160.

Total = over $1000

1) is this a good package for sound quality?

2) is there anyway to get the same type of quality sound (assuming it is a good one with this package) but a bit on a lower price?

any other suggestions?


Wolfgang Achtner
Sun 2 Mar 2008Link

Brian,

My 02.c worth. What you describes seems very much a mockumentary to me.

I don't think it has to do anything with ethics, rather it's a question of what kind of a story you want to tell and whatever way you believe is best to tell that particular story.

A documentary can very well be interesting and entertaining without using gimmicks. It very much depends on the story and how you want to tell it.


Christopher Wong
Sun 2 Mar 2008Link

brian, a mockumentary is really just a fiction film posing as a documentary. i think what you seem to be worried about is your doc descend into something so silly that the main point about something serious (i.e. the electoral system) is lost.

while i'm not completely convinced that your scene (as described) will work effectively, there's nothing ethically wrong with it, especially since you seem to be taking great pains to tell the audience "This is a setup!" but if you compare your scene to some of the animated scenes in, let's say, "Bowling for Columbine", it's essentially the same thing. the only difference is you've got animated characters standing in for paid actors – the humor, the pre-written lines, and the method are the same.


Brian Boyko
Sun 2 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Fredric Lean's post on Sun 2 Mar 2008 :

Fredric, I'm also shooting on the HV20, and my next purchase is for a beachtek adapter and some new XLR mics – but I've found I've got good audio from this combo:

Audio Technica ATR55 Shotgun Mic ($50)
Shock Mount ($20-40)
A bracket to move the microphone away from the camera. ($10)

I don't use wireless mics.

There are two problems with this setup. One, handling noise – even handling the wire connected to the camera – transmits easily. But I've actually found it to get really, really good sound.

Get that setup if you can afford it – don't try to cheap out on the sound, and that actually sounds like the best option.

You may also want to spend $200 on a Samson Zoom H2 to get a second source of audio if you're doing sit-down interviews.

A deadcat/fluffydog will be useful for cutting out wind noise.

With my setup, here's the audio I got.

Outside, w/Crowd Noise: http://vimeo.com/736167
Outside, w & w/out crowd noise: http://vimeo.com/378059
Outside, w/out crowd noise: http://vimeo.com/377215


Brian Boyko
Mon 3 Mar 2008Link

Another quick question: Anyone use Keynote to graph key ideas in a documentary? How did it turn out?


Asar Imhotep
Mon 3 Mar 2008Link

Peace everyone

I was wondering if anyone had any good advice on temporary insurance for documentaries. I am working on a budget for my film in which I want to hit Ghana, Tanzania, France and Britain. With me possibly going overseas, I don't want to take equipment and things over there and not be insured. Does anyone have any experience with this? Who would you recommend as a provider and who should I AVOID?

Thanks in advance


Alex Fumero
Tue 4 Mar 2008Link

Hi Everyone,

I'm a first time documentarian producing a film about the first generation immigrant exiles to move to Miami from Cuba. They are old and I need to get their stories on video before they die. I'm going to try to hire an experienced director, but if not, I'm going to do it myself.

1) Are their any documentaries I can look to for inspiration that are like this one? I know there is a name for this type of film where you profile a certain community or group of people and interview them, but don't know the name.

2) In terms of sound, I'd like to get the wireless lapel mics. Is that a bad idea? I feel like it would make shooting that much easier.

Please help. Thanks, Alex.


James Perez
Wed 5 Mar 2008Link

Alex, for your first comment, that is basically researching a subculture. It's like a sub group of a larger culture. Profiling and researching a group within a group, in which people have something in common, can be very helpful. There is a documentary called "Wetback" that targets foreign immigrants that is very well done. Check it out.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 5 Mar 2008Link

Alex,

Your project sounds very interesting.

A few quick tips regarding how to go about it (regarding whether or not you should shoot it yourself; you might want to have a pro start shooting it and later, when you've learned how to shoot, you could continue by yourself).

Identify the characters, the people, men and women that you want to shoot;
Research all the information you can find about the community that interest you: this means research archives of local newspapers, and identify and read some books dealing with these issues.

A book that comes to my mind is: Finding Manana: A Memoir of a Cuban Exodus (Paperback)
by Mirta Ojito

http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Manana-Memoir-Cuban-Exodus/dp/0143036602

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/books/review/15STARRL.html

If I remember correctly, she's working on a documentary based on her book.

You may find some useful information here:

http://www.tc.edu/latinoresearch/index.htm?id=Research+Areas&area=Immigration

2) Visit and research the neighborhood. I would assume that there is a "Little Havana" in Miami. Visit the neighborhood, reserach everyhting about it, discover who some of the most important members of the community are, when any particular religious or other festivities take place, etc.

3) Shoot all of the above.

4) identify 4 or 5 interesting characters. get to know them, interview them, shoot them at work and with their families, get photos, visit with them for several months/one year.

5) Decide what kind of doc you want to build with the material you are gathering.

6) Build your doc around the personal stories of these 4 or 5 people, interweaving blocks about the community. The fact that the situation in Cuba is moving and that this is an election year will give you great topics and great video to interweave withe stories of your 4 or 5 protagonists.

Re your second question, wireless lavalier mics are very good to interview people. I would suggest you might be interested in the Sennheiser Evolution G2 100 series; it has a good price/value ratio.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/324229-REG/Sennheiser_EW100ENGG2_C_Evolution_G2_100_Series.html


Maria Bailey
Wed 5 Mar 2008Link

Hi Everyone

I am a student at Ravensbourne College and I am currently in my last of study for a BA degree in Broadcast Post Production. I am writing an essay entitled Can Documentaries be Completely Impartial? I am required to have primary research for my essay and I was hoping that some of you would be able to answer these questions for me.

What motivates a filmmaker to make a documentary and is there always a
political angle to it?

Can the editing in a film or television programme change reality? If so in what way?

Can the way something is shot change the reality of a situation? If so how?

I would also be interested in any views or opinions that you have on
Michael Moore's film Roger & Me and Rupert Murdoch's OutFoxed.

I hope that you can spare the time to help this hard working student LOL. I look forward to your replies.


Sahand Sahebdivani
Wed 5 Mar 2008Link

Hi Maria,

IMHO there's a few things you have to consider. First there's the issue that documentaries are a form of art. One way that art, at least for me, defines itself is that it's unique because of the artist. If 2 very good crafts(wo)men paint a wall the result will be (more or less) the same, if two artists paint on the same canvas the result will be significantly different even if they try to paint the same picture.

Now compare documentaries to journalism. Even when journalists do their best to be impartial the results aren't always, there's always personal, religious, cultural biases, there's the stress of deadlines, there's the wishes of the editors or sponsors, there's the conscious or subconsious choices you make to cut things out of the story, highlight other things, for the sake of clarity but which end up "coloring" a story.

Now, even though it's a gross oversimplification to say journalism is purely a "craft" and documentary making purely an "art", one can assume that the personal "coloring" is even a bigger issue in documentary.

So I personaly think that, no, documentaries or journalistic pieces are never fully (or at all) unbiased. This is not an issue for me. I very much like to hear the personal in the story. For instance, when I read a piece of N. Chomsky, I don't think, now I will know the truth and the whole truth about this subject, I will rather think, now I know N. Chomsky's take on this subject. (Though sometimes I forget and have to remind myself, and so does the general audience, but this is another topic altogether)

Now, another issue to consider is the following, documentary makers are not always trying to cover a story, sometimes they are trying to change the world, the society, people's believes. I have not seen OutFoxced, but Micheal Moore, for me, is very much an activist filmmaker. I might agree with his messages, but I don't assume he will give me a biased account of what even he perceives as the truth. To make the power of his story stronger will he use material that supports his story and leave out material that gives a different opinion.

Again, I don't think this is bad. A film like SuperSize Me, in which the filmmaker eats at McDonalds for a month and becomes a repulsive monster might be infantile to some, but can be quite entertaining and potentially life-changing for others.

"Can the editing in a film or television programme change reality? If so in what way?

Can the way something is shot change the reality of a situation? If so how?"

Both editing and shooting can change the reality in 1.000.000 ways. In my native Iran there's regular anti US protests, but always shot in a way to hide the fact that these are actualy small groups protesting. A huge anti US protest is good for both Iranian media as well as foreign media.

Now imagine you are filming a neighbourhood, everything decision, from material you shoot on, framing, music, editing, etc. etc. changes the story. Imagine a grainy home video type of image going over the graffiti, while the soundtrack is gangsterrap. Now imagine filming on oldfashioned 16 mm, made even warmer in post production, with beautiful music (think wonder years). Same neighbourhood, but two totally different emotional reactions to the footage.

Anyway, one could go on, but I hope this helps.


Asar Imhotep
Thu 6 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Asar Imhotep's post on Tue 4 Mar 2008 :

Can anyone help me out with the Insurance question?


Alison Clifford
Thu 6 Mar 2008Link

Hi, I´m looking at how to put together a marketing package for a documentary about film piracy in Mexico. I´ve never done any marketing and I´m not sure where to start. I know I want to send it out to TV stations both in the States and in Mexico, as well as PR´s for magazines and Newspapers as well as radio stations. I could really use some help in getting myself pointed in the right direction.


Erica Ginsberg
Thu 6 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Asar Imhotep's post on Thu 6 Mar 2008 :

Asar, others may be able to recommend European-based insurance companies that might be competitive. In the U.S., DeWitt Stern is one of the best known for production insurance.


Asar Imhotep
Fri 7 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Erica Ginsberg's post on Fri 7 Mar 2008 :

Thank you so much. I will check them out. They seem to have a simple process. Thanks again.


Evan Thomas
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

Has anyone used public domain footage from www.archive.org in their productions? There's some useful archive for my film on there but should i get its public domain status verified before i go ahead and use it?


Boyd McCollum
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

It's good practice to verify any footage you use, regardless of source. Lots of people think they own copyright to certain things when they actually don't.

With Archive.org you need to really read the different licensing they use – not all of it is public domain. Some requires attribution, some can be used in a noncommercial way, etc. I've seen media that had no copyright/licensing information provided. So just residing on the site doesn't mean public domain.

Get whatever information provided and if there isn't any, do some more research on it. This can be useful when getting E&O insurance. Also, it's good practice to have an entertainment/copyright attorney look over you stuff. (and do find a lawyer that specializes in this, as not all lawyers have equal knowledge. A good friend of mine is a top notch real estate attorney, and he won't touch copyright – "it's not what I do, so I can't provide solid legal opinions". )


Grady Matthews
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

I would like to ask a question about Sundance. Do they only select the 16 documentaries for competition or do they also select many others that do not make the competition (but are still part of the festival)? I believe this is the case from my research online. If so, do the non competing docs get decent recognition from press, industry people, make sales, etc, etc? Thanks for the great site.

Thank you,
Grady Matthews


Doug Block
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

Grady, they select the 16 main competition docs, the world docs, and a few docs find their way into the American Spectrum section. The world docs have their own awards and American Spectrum docs are eligible for the doc audience award.


Shauna Kartt Jaeger
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

Hello D-Word Visitors and Members,

I'm a producer/production manager new to the NYC area and am looking to find a dependable crew with documentary or lifestyle TV experience for my roster. I do have a few contacts, but it would be nice to have more incase people are unavailable.

Can anyone make recommendations for any of the following?

-DOP – HD/DV CAM w/ light kit ideally. Some studio experience is a plus.
-Sound – doc experience. Studio is a plus.
-Production Coordinator
-Editor (Avid and Final Cut)
-Location manager
-Stylists

It would also be helpful if anyone can recommend vendors for post production, post audio, an insurance broker, props and gear rental shops.

I've been working in documentary production for 9 years and am leaving my contacts behind to be with my love in NYC, so any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks soooooo much!


Ben Kempas
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

I feel like I've read this three times now... :-)


Brian Boyko
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

I've made my first short documentary. It clocks in at 26:40, cutting everything down to the bare essentials. I've got a big stack of DVDs next to me, and I've got the entire thing up online at Vimeo for those who want to watch it: http://www.vimeo.com/766987

So, um... now what? Promotion? Film festivals? Anyone got any ideas?


Shauna Kartt Jaeger
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Ben Kempas's post on Mon 10 Mar 2008 :

Hey thanks! At least now I know someone, somewhere read it:)


Doug Block
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

Shauna, no need to double post at The D-Word. Just find the most pertinent topic. In this case, the Classifieds would have been best.


Shauna Kartt Jaeger
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Doug Block's post on Tue 11 Mar 2008 :

Yes, Ben mentioned he read my post 3 times. I'm a bad, bad newbie;)


Ben Kempas
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

Yeah, I tend to be a little more subtle than Doug... :-)


Doug Block
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

Also, Shauna, since we're mentoring (and you take mentoring so well), no need to use the "in reply" button when you're replying to the post right above you.


Ana Da Silva
Thu 13 Mar 2008Link

Hi!

Question on submitting an idea. I got in touch with a production company and they're willing to read my informal project idea/proposal. I feel strongly about the project and 1. would like it to come to life and 2. would like to be involved with it. I'd like to express this to the producers but can see how from their point of view that might be asking too much (especially for a newbie).

The producers are merely willing to look at the informal proposal, which to me is really great news anyway, but as with any idea there's a chance they might like it and might want to work with it. I read that there's no such thing as a copyrighted idea so should the producers like what they read, can they just use it anyway?

What's you advice on submitting ideas when you don't have the means to produce the project yourself?

Thank you!


Ryan Ferguson
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement before you share your idea with them. Definitely not iron clad, but my guess is it would be enough for them to not steal your idea outright.


Christopher Wong
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

ana, it's not a problem that you don't have the means to produce the project yourself. just make sure that you have an angle into the project that clearly shows why YOU should be involved with it. whether that means you have exclusive access to the main character of the film (e.g. your father is the ringleader of a terrorist group) or whether you have certain skills they need (e.g. you know the hidden tribe's language), you somehow need to prove that you are indispensable to the project. but simply having an idea is not enough. (unless, of course, this is a pitch for another reality show, in which case, you can disregard all my comments...)


Ana Da Silva
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

Thanks all! I really appreciate your suggestions. It's definitely not a reality show and I think a lot of people would benefit from it.

Cheers!


Ana Da Silva
Mon 17 Mar 2008Link

Film school question.

I'm considering starting over and take film more seriously (currently I'm a communications professional in New York). It's a bit scary, especially after having attended grad school to find out it hasn't made much difference career-wise. I'm mainly interested in schools in Europe.

If you went back, why did you do it (for yourself or as a job requirement)? Any input?

Thanks!

:)


Robert Goodman
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Film School is pointless (especially if you already have a terminal degree) unless you want to pursue a specific craft or don't have a terminal degree and plan on teaching Film. If you want to pursue a specific craft you'd be better off working with someone whose work you admire. Really the only fast track in this business.


Christopher Wong
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Agreed. Like many others, I was brought up to believe that if you want to accomplish anything in life, you first have to go to a school and get a degree in that subject. True for medicine; false for film.

This goes double for documentary filmmaking. If you're persistent enough, you can get experienced doc filmmakers to be mentors and advisors for you, without paying the exorbitant film school tuition. Start watching doc films (one every day if you can), read some books (Rabiger's book on documentary), and begin shooting a subject easily accessible to you (e.g. your family).


David Malver
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Film school undergrad work was a worthwhile experience for me, Ana. However, a good film tech school is often an affordable alternative if your main goal is to be trained in on equipment.


Ana Da Silva
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Thank you! That's what I hear from a lot of folks. Networking seems to be the way to go with everything.

A question for foreigners trying out for film in the US (or in other countries): what's your experience been like and do you have any suggestions.

I really do appreciate all your time!


Brian Boyko
Thu 20 Mar 2008Link

I had a quick question. I’ve got my short doc (26min) in the can and DVD-pressed, and it’s gotten 4200 plays on Vimeo so far (with 120,000 references – whatever that means.)

Since I did the thing myself, and have a day job, and nothing to lose, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to team up with a local indie production company that would be going to a film market anyway, and have them offer sampler DVDs, with the idea that they pick up a share of the profit if that sells. I figure it would be cheaper than going myself. What do you think?


Christopher Wong
Thu 20 Mar 2008Link

brian, congrats on getting your doc out into the public. while i don't have specific advice for you, i think you'll get even better feedback in the Members section of D-Word. having already finished a 26-minute doc yourself, you definitely qualify. so apply for full membership.


Brian Boyko
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

Chris: Just got rejected from applying as a full member.


John Burgan
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

Brian – we've decided that although you have some relevant experience already, you haven't yet acquired enough to join the Community as a professional doc filmmaker.

The good news is that as you seem to be heading in the right direction, we've tagged you for a follow-up later this year. Perhaps you will have made some progress with distributing "Makers" – are you planning to submit it to any festivals?

At any rate, we hope you'll stick around and let us know how things develop.


Brian Boyko
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

I've submitted Makers to Austin Film Festival, and the DVD is in the mail to Withoutabox. Because it's a documentary short, and I have already gotten a bigger audience through the Internet than I ever could via film festivals, I'm not sure whether I should bother submitting to more than Austin FF and SXSW (which are both local to me.)

Of course, this is the kind of advice I was looking for with the original question... ;)


Christopher Wong
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

sorry about that, Brian. i shouldn't have assumed that you hadn't already tried to apply for membership. but i think you'll definitely be a full member in the not too distant future. in the meantime, let's all concentrate on answering your original question about teaming up with a local indie production company at a film market:

Brian Boyko's post on Thu 20 Mar 2008


Brian Regienczuk
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Not sure if this "mentoring room" could help with my question...
I am interested in advice on how to find right person (film maker) and fund a small documentary style effort and what might be interesting goals / benefits that makes it a win/win for company and film producer.

Some nice to have goals for company might be:
+ capture people's reactions around new product innovation at large/major event in Eastern Europe (new product concepts around several themes, dramatic event experience in major city, new products being launched, other interesting products being demonstrated/show for sales in both business to business and business to consumer arena)
+ capture value design is adding to business
+ possible interviews with CEO/CMOs from top companies
+ many other areas that could be mutually interesting if discussed... but trying to understand if this might be interesting to a qualified independent film maker or high potential starting out

There could be two cuts... both would likely be very people-focused. But, one could capture essence of business value and the other could be all around creative/design side of things.

Edited Sat 22 Mar 2008 by Brian Regienczuk

John Burgan
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Brian – welcome to D-Word. It's rather difficult to respond to your post as it's quite abstract. Obviously you don't want to let out any trade secrets, but could you explain more concretely what it's all about?


Brian Regienczuk
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Say you have a big event every year like MacWorld (AppleWorld) or an auto show (but put on by only one company, not a tradeshow)... you show off your latest products, you launch 2 or 3 new things, and you show a vision of where your company is going (concept cars, or other physical immersive manifestations). You have to entice the media and your top customers to attend and you want to broadcast and create discussion around all 3 parts of this event experience...

I am exploring how a highly experiential event with similar attributes could leverage film/documentary storytelling in interesting, meaningful ways – meaningful to the company, its stakeholders, and the film maker...

Hope that helps explain things a bit more...


Lenville O'Donnell
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Very interesting idea, Brian. I should think there would be several filmmakers in here who would be interested in discussing this in more detail. It is a rather large undertaking, and producing a film could be done many different ways depending on more specifics on corporate goals and the event itself. If I understand you accurately, the Mentoring Room might not really be the place for this. I'd suggest posting also in the Public Classifieds... if you haven't already... you might get more responses in there.


Matt Dubuque
Tue 25 Mar 2008Link

Ana-

I would highly recommend you attend film school if you really want an in depth knowledge of the deep traditions you are working in and attempting to build upon and if you can afford it.

However, if you just want to get as much cash as quickly as possible, that may be necessary.

But consider the case of James Longley. He is thankful that he attended two years of film school in Russia, studying Soviet montage. And his films are truly masterful in their editing. Check out his mastery of Soviet montage in Iraq in Fragments. I daresay you haven't seen editing of that caliber frequently.

Longley has only made three films. However, all three have been nominated for Oscars, and deservedly so. I'm sure he would tell you that film school was not irrelevant in that score.

And ask yourself, if you have only made three films and been nominated for three Oscars, what are your career prospects?

So if you are interested in more than fast money, I would recommend you actively consider it.

Just my view. There's 100 years of film history by people more profound than myself that deserve more than cursory and casual attention.

I just don't see what's wrong with a detailed study of Vertov, Hitchcock, Bunuel, Kurosawa and Kubrick. Study, deep study and reflection, on their own terms, free of hypercommercialized and contaminating influences that command us to: "G go make money now".

The hypercommercialization of cinema (and culture generally) has its drawbacks. They should always be contemplated when making big decisions such as this.

In reply to Ana Da Silva's post on Mon 17 Mar 2008 :


Ana Da Silva
Wed 26 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Matt Dubuque's post on Tue 25 Mar 2008 :

Thanks for your opinion Matt. Making big money is not why I want to go into film. I really do love it as an art and am disappointed with the mainstream industry. The catch-22 is that not being money-driven, I'm money-less so I've started studying and researching on my own in the meantime :)


Lucia Small
Thu 27 Mar 2008Link

New to New York. My hard drive has fizzled.
I had taken my G-5 to the genius bar three weeks ago...in anticipation of trying to prevent something going wrong, and it did today.
I've been on the phone with my Boston computer guru for an hour. We need to take it to the next level...have someone who can help me...
Any great computer gurus for doc folk in Manhattan that do house calls?
Thanks! (I know this isn't real mentoring, but....)


Stefani L. Weiss
Fri 28 Mar 2008Link

Hi,
I'm working on my first documentary (and my first film since film school 25 years ago!). I'm having trouble determining some of the line items to prepare a budget. I have so many questions it's hard to know where to start! I'll try a few for now and any help would be greatly appreciated!

One of my main questions would be how to determine crew costs. I will be contracting out all production and I will need to travel overseas to two different locations. Should I submit my treatment to production companies to give me quotes on their costs to do the filming? (a friend did a documentary and his production company quoted him on all his overseas costs, but he didn't have to do a budget up front, he funded everything himself. I'm not in that position!)I'm not sure that I can accurately determine any type of shooting schedule because I have not done a site visit. I should probably do a site visit before, but I don't have funding yet. I feel like I'm in a catch-22 every way I turn! In order to pitch for funding, I need the budget, in order to determine the budget, I need money! I also don't know how to factor in licensing costs on footage or photos I may have to purchase. My subject is an Olympic athlete and I have already contacted the Olympic Television Archives Bureau, but they want to know what footage I would need and how it would be used before being able to give me an approximation on cost. Until I know who will be funding the project, I can't tell them how it will be used! (They want to know if it will be cable, international, etc...what I INTEND and what may actually become reality may be different!)

Also, what is a realistic salary for writer/producer/director? I will need to factor that in to the budget as well so I at least have a salary to work with.

One more item for now would be if anyone has a recommendation on budget software/film software, etc. I've read about many different programs and mixed reviews on whether or not they are needed. I thought maybe it would be helpful to use a software program so I wouldn't leave out any important line items! One program that caught my eye online is called Gorilla...any comments on that one?

Thanks in advance for any help. I hope to one day be able to apply for membership here!


Tara Hurley
Mon 31 Mar 2008Link

Hello everyone. I am very close to finishing my film. I just had a small viewing, and general point of view was that I needed to shorten it and add some more p.o.v. of the women. (It is so hard to cut when you love the footage!!!) Anyway, I have begun to cut, and I found an area that I will add. I have a section that I want to add about what the women want to do with their lives when they get out of the business. One of the women keep saying how she wants to own a Dunkin Donuts. I know DnD never pays for product placement, and I am sure they wouldn't pay for it in my film, and I am not asking for that, I just am wondering if they could sue me for leaving them and their products in my film.
For information about my film check out the trailer at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3nv3sSc-BY
or check the website
www.happyendingsdocumentary.com
Thanks in advance.
TL


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