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The Mentoring Room - Ask the Working Pros

This is a Public Topic geared towards first-time filmmakers. Professional members of The D-Word will come by and answer your questions about documentary filmmaking.

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Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 5 Mar 2008Link

Alex,

Your project sounds very interesting.

A few quick tips regarding how to go about it (regarding whether or not you should shoot it yourself; you might want to have a pro start shooting it and later, when you've learned how to shoot, you could continue by yourself).

Identify the characters, the people, men and women that you want to shoot;
Research all the information you can find about the community that interest you: this means research archives of local newspapers, and identify and read some books dealing with these issues.

A book that comes to my mind is: Finding Manana: A Memoir of a Cuban Exodus (Paperback)
by Mirta Ojito

http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Manana-Memoir-Cuban-Exodus/dp/0143036602

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/books/review/15STARRL.html

If I remember correctly, she's working on a documentary based on her book.

You may find some useful information here:

http://www.tc.edu/latinoresearch/index.htm?id=Research+Areas&area=Immigration

2) Visit and research the neighborhood. I would assume that there is a "Little Havana" in Miami. Visit the neighborhood, reserach everyhting about it, discover who some of the most important members of the community are, when any particular religious or other festivities take place, etc.

3) Shoot all of the above.

4) identify 4 or 5 interesting characters. get to know them, interview them, shoot them at work and with their families, get photos, visit with them for several months/one year.

5) Decide what kind of doc you want to build with the material you are gathering.

6) Build your doc around the personal stories of these 4 or 5 people, interweaving blocks about the community. The fact that the situation in Cuba is moving and that this is an election year will give you great topics and great video to interweave withe stories of your 4 or 5 protagonists.

Re your second question, wireless lavalier mics are very good to interview people. I would suggest you might be interested in the Sennheiser Evolution G2 100 series; it has a good price/value ratio.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/324229-REG/Sennheiser_EW100ENGG2_C_Evolution_G2_100_Series.html


Maria Bailey
Wed 5 Mar 2008Link

Hi Everyone

I am a student at Ravensbourne College and I am currently in my last of study for a BA degree in Broadcast Post Production. I am writing an essay entitled Can Documentaries be Completely Impartial? I am required to have primary research for my essay and I was hoping that some of you would be able to answer these questions for me.

What motivates a filmmaker to make a documentary and is there always a
political angle to it?

Can the editing in a film or television programme change reality? If so in what way?

Can the way something is shot change the reality of a situation? If so how?

I would also be interested in any views or opinions that you have on
Michael Moore's film Roger & Me and Rupert Murdoch's OutFoxed.

I hope that you can spare the time to help this hard working student LOL. I look forward to your replies.


Sahand Sahebdivani
Thu 6 Mar 2008Link

Hi Maria,

IMHO there's a few things you have to consider. First there's the issue that documentaries are a form of art. One way that art, at least for me, defines itself is that it's unique because of the artist. If 2 very good crafts(wo)men paint a wall the result will be (more or less) the same, if two artists paint on the same canvas the result will be significantly different even if they try to paint the same picture.

Now compare documentaries to journalism. Even when journalists do their best to be impartial the results aren't always, there's always personal, religious, cultural biases, there's the stress of deadlines, there's the wishes of the editors or sponsors, there's the conscious or subconsious choices you make to cut things out of the story, highlight other things, for the sake of clarity but which end up "coloring" a story.

Now, even though it's a gross oversimplification to say journalism is purely a "craft" and documentary making purely an "art", one can assume that the personal "coloring" is even a bigger issue in documentary.

So I personaly think that, no, documentaries or journalistic pieces are never fully (or at all) unbiased. This is not an issue for me. I very much like to hear the personal in the story. For instance, when I read a piece of N. Chomsky, I don't think, now I will know the truth and the whole truth about this subject, I will rather think, now I know N. Chomsky's take on this subject. (Though sometimes I forget and have to remind myself, and so does the general audience, but this is another topic altogether)

Now, another issue to consider is the following, documentary makers are not always trying to cover a story, sometimes they are trying to change the world, the society, people's believes. I have not seen OutFoxced, but Micheal Moore, for me, is very much an activist filmmaker. I might agree with his messages, but I don't assume he will give me a biased account of what even he perceives as the truth. To make the power of his story stronger will he use material that supports his story and leave out material that gives a different opinion.

Again, I don't think this is bad. A film like SuperSize Me, in which the filmmaker eats at McDonalds for a month and becomes a repulsive monster might be infantile to some, but can be quite entertaining and potentially life-changing for others.

"Can the editing in a film or television programme change reality? If so in what way?

Can the way something is shot change the reality of a situation? If so how?"

Both editing and shooting can change the reality in 1.000.000 ways. In my native Iran there's regular anti US protests, but always shot in a way to hide the fact that these are actualy small groups protesting. A huge anti US protest is good for both Iranian media as well as foreign media.

Now imagine you are filming a neighbourhood, everything decision, from material you shoot on, framing, music, editing, etc. etc. changes the story. Imagine a grainy home video type of image going over the graffiti, while the soundtrack is gangsterrap. Now imagine filming on oldfashioned 16 mm, made even warmer in post production, with beautiful music (think wonder years). Same neighbourhood, but two totally different emotional reactions to the footage.

Anyway, one could go on, but I hope this helps.


Asar Imhotep
Thu 6 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Asar Imhotep's post on Tue 4 Mar 2008 :

Can anyone help me out with the Insurance question?


Alison Clifford
Thu 6 Mar 2008Link

Hi, I´m looking at how to put together a marketing package for a documentary about film piracy in Mexico. I´ve never done any marketing and I´m not sure where to start. I know I want to send it out to TV stations both in the States and in Mexico, as well as PR´s for magazines and Newspapers as well as radio stations. I could really use some help in getting myself pointed in the right direction.


Erica Ginsberg
Fri 7 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Asar Imhotep's post on Thu 6 Mar 2008 :

Asar, others may be able to recommend European-based insurance companies that might be competitive. In the U.S., DeWitt Stern is one of the best known for production insurance.


Asar Imhotep
Fri 7 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Erica Ginsberg's post on Fri 7 Mar 2008 :

Thank you so much. I will check them out. They seem to have a simple process. Thanks again.


Evan Thomas
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

Has anyone used public domain footage from www.archive.org in their productions? There's some useful archive for my film on there but should i get its public domain status verified before i go ahead and use it?


Boyd McCollum
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

It's good practice to verify any footage you use, regardless of source. Lots of people think they own copyright to certain things when they actually don't.

With Archive.org you need to really read the different licensing they use – not all of it is public domain. Some requires attribution, some can be used in a noncommercial way, etc. I've seen media that had no copyright/licensing information provided. So just residing on the site doesn't mean public domain.

Get whatever information provided and if there isn't any, do some more research on it. This can be useful when getting E&O insurance. Also, it's good practice to have an entertainment/copyright attorney look over you stuff. (and do find a lawyer that specializes in this, as not all lawyers have equal knowledge. A good friend of mine is a top notch real estate attorney, and he won't touch copyright – "it's not what I do, so I can't provide solid legal opinions". )


Grady Matthews
Sun 9 Mar 2008Link

I would like to ask a question about Sundance. Do they only select the 16 documentaries for competition or do they also select many others that do not make the competition (but are still part of the festival)? I believe this is the case from my research online. If so, do the non competing docs get decent recognition from press, industry people, make sales, etc, etc? Thanks for the great site.

Thank you,
Grady Matthews


Doug Block
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

Grady, they select the 16 main competition docs, the world docs, and a few docs find their way into the American Spectrum section. The world docs have their own awards and American Spectrum docs are eligible for the doc audience award.


Shauna Kartt Jaeger
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

Hello D-Word Visitors and Members,

I'm a producer/production manager new to the NYC area and am looking to find a dependable crew with documentary or lifestyle TV experience for my roster. I do have a few contacts, but it would be nice to have more incase people are unavailable.

Can anyone make recommendations for any of the following?

-DOP – HD/DV CAM w/ light kit ideally. Some studio experience is a plus.
-Sound – doc experience. Studio is a plus.
-Production Coordinator
-Editor (Avid and Final Cut)
-Location manager
-Stylists

It would also be helpful if anyone can recommend vendors for post production, post audio, an insurance broker, props and gear rental shops.

I've been working in documentary production for 9 years and am leaving my contacts behind to be with my love in NYC, so any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks soooooo much!


Ben Kempas
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

I feel like I've read this three times now... :-)


Brian Boyko
Mon 10 Mar 2008Link

I've made my first short documentary. It clocks in at 26:40, cutting everything down to the bare essentials. I've got a big stack of DVDs next to me, and I've got the entire thing up online at Vimeo for those who want to watch it: http://www.vimeo.com/766987

So, um... now what? Promotion? Film festivals? Anyone got any ideas?


Shauna Kartt Jaeger
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Ben Kempas's post on Mon 10 Mar 2008 :

Hey thanks! At least now I know someone, somewhere read it:)


Doug Block
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

Shauna, no need to double post at The D-Word. Just find the most pertinent topic. In this case, the Classifieds would have been best.


Shauna Kartt Jaeger
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Doug Block's post on Tue 11 Mar 2008 :

Yes, Ben mentioned he read my post 3 times. I'm a bad, bad newbie;)


Ben Kempas
Tue 11 Mar 2008Link

Yeah, I tend to be a little more subtle than Doug... :-)


Doug Block
Wed 12 Mar 2008Link

Also, Shauna, since we're mentoring (and you take mentoring so well), no need to use the "in reply" button when you're replying to the post right above you.


Ana Da Silva
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

Hi!

Question on submitting an idea. I got in touch with a production company and they're willing to read my informal project idea/proposal. I feel strongly about the project and 1. would like it to come to life and 2. would like to be involved with it. I'd like to express this to the producers but can see how from their point of view that might be asking too much (especially for a newbie).

The producers are merely willing to look at the informal proposal, which to me is really great news anyway, but as with any idea there's a chance they might like it and might want to work with it. I read that there's no such thing as a copyrighted idea so should the producers like what they read, can they just use it anyway?

What's you advice on submitting ideas when you don't have the means to produce the project yourself?

Thank you!


Ryan Ferguson
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement before you share your idea with them. Definitely not iron clad, but my guess is it would be enough for them to not steal your idea outright.


Christopher Wong
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

ana, it's not a problem that you don't have the means to produce the project yourself. just make sure that you have an angle into the project that clearly shows why YOU should be involved with it. whether that means you have exclusive access to the main character of the film (e.g. your father is the ringleader of a terrorist group) or whether you have certain skills they need (e.g. you know the hidden tribe's language), you somehow need to prove that you are indispensable to the project. but simply having an idea is not enough. (unless, of course, this is a pitch for another reality show, in which case, you can disregard all my comments...)


Ana Da Silva
Fri 14 Mar 2008Link

Thanks all! I really appreciate your suggestions. It's definitely not a reality show and I think a lot of people would benefit from it.

Cheers!


Ana Da Silva
Mon 17 Mar 2008Link

Film school question.

I'm considering starting over and take film more seriously (currently I'm a communications professional in New York). It's a bit scary, especially after having attended grad school to find out it hasn't made much difference career-wise. I'm mainly interested in schools in Europe.

If you went back, why did you do it (for yourself or as a job requirement)? Any input?

Thanks!

:)


Robert Goodman
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Film School is pointless (especially if you already have a terminal degree) unless you want to pursue a specific craft or don't have a terminal degree and plan on teaching Film. If you want to pursue a specific craft you'd be better off working with someone whose work you admire. Really the only fast track in this business.


Christopher Wong
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Agreed. Like many others, I was brought up to believe that if you want to accomplish anything in life, you first have to go to a school and get a degree in that subject. True for medicine; false for film.

This goes double for documentary filmmaking. If you're persistent enough, you can get experienced doc filmmakers to be mentors and advisors for you, without paying the exorbitant film school tuition. Start watching doc films (one every day if you can), read some books (Rabiger's book on documentary), and begin shooting a subject easily accessible to you (e.g. your family).


David Malver
Tue 18 Mar 2008Link

Film school undergrad work was a worthwhile experience for me, Ana. However, a good film tech school is often an affordable alternative if your main goal is to be trained in on equipment.


Ana Da Silva
Wed 19 Mar 2008Link

Thank you! That's what I hear from a lot of folks. Networking seems to be the way to go with everything.

A question for foreigners trying out for film in the US (or in other countries): what's your experience been like and do you have any suggestions.

I really do appreciate all your time!


Brian Boyko
Thu 20 Mar 2008Link

I had a quick question. I’ve got my short doc (26min) in the can and DVD-pressed, and it’s gotten 4200 plays on Vimeo so far (with 120,000 references – whatever that means.)

Since I did the thing myself, and have a day job, and nothing to lose, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to team up with a local indie production company that would be going to a film market anyway, and have them offer sampler DVDs, with the idea that they pick up a share of the profit if that sells. I figure it would be cheaper than going myself. What do you think?


Christopher Wong
Thu 20 Mar 2008Link

brian, congrats on getting your doc out into the public. while i don't have specific advice for you, i think you'll get even better feedback in the Members section of D-Word. having already finished a 26-minute doc yourself, you definitely qualify. so apply for full membership.


Brian Boyko
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

Chris: Just got rejected from applying as a full member.


John Burgan
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

Brian – we've decided that although you have some relevant experience already, you haven't yet acquired enough to join the Community as a professional doc filmmaker.

The good news is that as you seem to be heading in the right direction, we've tagged you for a follow-up later this year. Perhaps you will have made some progress with distributing "Makers" – are you planning to submit it to any festivals?

At any rate, we hope you'll stick around and let us know how things develop.


Brian Boyko
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

I've submitted Makers to Austin Film Festival, and the DVD is in the mail to Withoutabox. Because it's a documentary short, and I have already gotten a bigger audience through the Internet than I ever could via film festivals, I'm not sure whether I should bother submitting to more than Austin FF and SXSW (which are both local to me.)

Of course, this is the kind of advice I was looking for with the original question... ;)


Christopher Wong
Fri 21 Mar 2008Link

sorry about that, Brian. i shouldn't have assumed that you hadn't already tried to apply for membership. but i think you'll definitely be a full member in the not too distant future. in the meantime, let's all concentrate on answering your original question about teaming up with a local indie production company at a film market:

Brian Boyko's post on Thu 20 Mar 2008


Brian Regienczuk
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Not sure if this "mentoring room" could help with my question...
I am interested in advice on how to find right person (film maker) and fund a small documentary style effort and what might be interesting goals / benefits that makes it a win/win for company and film producer.

Some nice to have goals for company might be:
+ capture people's reactions around new product innovation at large/major event in Eastern Europe (new product concepts around several themes, dramatic event experience in major city, new products being launched, other interesting products being demonstrated/show for sales in both business to business and business to consumer arena)
+ capture value design is adding to business
+ possible interviews with CEO/CMOs from top companies
+ many other areas that could be mutually interesting if discussed... but trying to understand if this might be interesting to a qualified independent film maker or high potential starting out

There could be two cuts... both would likely be very people-focused. But, one could capture essence of business value and the other could be all around creative/design side of things.

Edited Sat 22 Mar 2008 by Brian Regienczuk

John Burgan
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Brian – welcome to D-Word. It's rather difficult to respond to your post as it's quite abstract. Obviously you don't want to let out any trade secrets, but could you explain more concretely what it's all about?


Brian Regienczuk
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Say you have a big event every year like MacWorld (AppleWorld) or an auto show (but put on by only one company, not a tradeshow)... you show off your latest products, you launch 2 or 3 new things, and you show a vision of where your company is going (concept cars, or other physical immersive manifestations). You have to entice the media and your top customers to attend and you want to broadcast and create discussion around all 3 parts of this event experience...

I am exploring how a highly experiential event with similar attributes could leverage film/documentary storytelling in interesting, meaningful ways – meaningful to the company, its stakeholders, and the film maker...

Hope that helps explain things a bit more...


Lenville O'Donnell
Sat 22 Mar 2008Link

Very interesting idea, Brian. I should think there would be several filmmakers in here who would be interested in discussing this in more detail. It is a rather large undertaking, and producing a film could be done many different ways depending on more specifics on corporate goals and the event itself. If I understand you accurately, the Mentoring Room might not really be the place for this. I'd suggest posting also in the Public Classifieds... if you haven't already... you might get more responses in there.


Matt Dubuque
Tue 25 Mar 2008Link

Ana-

I would highly recommend you attend film school if you really want an in depth knowledge of the deep traditions you are working in and attempting to build upon and if you can afford it.

However, if you just want to get as much cash as quickly as possible, that may be necessary.

But consider the case of James Longley. He is thankful that he attended two years of film school in Russia, studying Soviet montage. And his films are truly masterful in their editing. Check out his mastery of Soviet montage in Iraq in Fragments. I daresay you haven't seen editing of that caliber frequently.

Longley has only made three films. However, all three have been nominated for Oscars, and deservedly so. I'm sure he would tell you that film school was not irrelevant in that score.

And ask yourself, if you have only made three films and been nominated for three Oscars, what are your career prospects?

So if you are interested in more than fast money, I would recommend you actively consider it.

Just my view. There's 100 years of film history by people more profound than myself that deserve more than cursory and casual attention.

I just don't see what's wrong with a detailed study of Vertov, Hitchcock, Bunuel, Kurosawa and Kubrick. Study, deep study and reflection, on their own terms, free of hypercommercialized and contaminating influences that command us to: "G go make money now".

The hypercommercialization of cinema (and culture generally) has its drawbacks. They should always be contemplated when making big decisions such as this.

In reply to Ana Da Silva's post on Mon 17 Mar 2008 :


Ana Da Silva
Thu 27 Mar 2008Link

In reply to Matt Dubuque's post on Tue 25 Mar 2008 :

Thanks for your opinion Matt. Making big money is not why I want to go into film. I really do love it as an art and am disappointed with the mainstream industry. The catch-22 is that not being money-driven, I'm money-less so I've started studying and researching on my own in the meantime :)


Lucia Small
Thu 27 Mar 2008Link

New to New York. My hard drive has fizzled.
I had taken my G-5 to the genius bar three weeks ago...in anticipation of trying to prevent something going wrong, and it did today.
I've been on the phone with my Boston computer guru for an hour. We need to take it to the next level...have someone who can help me...
Any great computer gurus for doc folk in Manhattan that do house calls?
Thanks! (I know this isn't real mentoring, but....)


Stefani L. Weiss
Fri 28 Mar 2008Link

Hi,
I'm working on my first documentary (and my first film since film school 25 years ago!). I'm having trouble determining some of the line items to prepare a budget. I have so many questions it's hard to know where to start! I'll try a few for now and any help would be greatly appreciated!

One of my main questions would be how to determine crew costs. I will be contracting out all production and I will need to travel overseas to two different locations. Should I submit my treatment to production companies to give me quotes on their costs to do the filming? (a friend did a documentary and his production company quoted him on all his overseas costs, but he didn't have to do a budget up front, he funded everything himself. I'm not in that position!)I'm not sure that I can accurately determine any type of shooting schedule because I have not done a site visit. I should probably do a site visit before, but I don't have funding yet. I feel like I'm in a catch-22 every way I turn! In order to pitch for funding, I need the budget, in order to determine the budget, I need money! I also don't know how to factor in licensing costs on footage or photos I may have to purchase. My subject is an Olympic athlete and I have already contacted the Olympic Television Archives Bureau, but they want to know what footage I would need and how it would be used before being able to give me an approximation on cost. Until I know who will be funding the project, I can't tell them how it will be used! (They want to know if it will be cable, international, etc...what I INTEND and what may actually become reality may be different!)

Also, what is a realistic salary for writer/producer/director? I will need to factor that in to the budget as well so I at least have a salary to work with.

One more item for now would be if anyone has a recommendation on budget software/film software, etc. I've read about many different programs and mixed reviews on whether or not they are needed. I thought maybe it would be helpful to use a software program so I wouldn't leave out any important line items! One program that caught my eye online is called Gorilla...any comments on that one?

Thanks in advance for any help. I hope to one day be able to apply for membership here!


Tara Hurley
Mon 31 Mar 2008Link

Hello everyone. I am very close to finishing my film. I just had a small viewing, and general point of view was that I needed to shorten it and add some more p.o.v. of the women. (It is so hard to cut when you love the footage!!!) Anyway, I have begun to cut, and I found an area that I will add. I have a section that I want to add about what the women want to do with their lives when they get out of the business. One of the women keep saying how she wants to own a Dunkin Donuts. I know DnD never pays for product placement, and I am sure they wouldn't pay for it in my film, and I am not asking for that, I just am wondering if they could sue me for leaving them and their products in my film.
For information about my film check out the trailer at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3nv3sSc-BY
or check the website
www.happyendingsdocumentary.com
Thanks in advance.
TL


Christopher Wong
Mon 31 Mar 2008Link

tara, how do you know that Dunking Donuts never pays for product placement? did you ask them? (not that i don't believe you...) i actually have quite a few Dunkin Donuts references in my film (none of them at all negative) and was considering approaching them for a long time, but just never got around to it.

in terms of them suing you just because you keep a reference to them in the film, you shouldn't have to worry about that. Fair Use covers you completely as long as the mention or appearance of Dunkin Donuts occurred incidental to your filming (and not intentionally so). and unless one of the women in your film is using one of their products in a rather blatant, lascivious way, i can't imagine Dunkin Donuts caring.


Tara Hurley
Tue 1 Apr 2008Link

I do know that they don't pay for product placement because I worked at a place once that tried asked, and they said they didn't. It is also on their website. And, the product appears in my film 2 times, one time she refers to her husband when she first met him walking in with a DnD ice coffee in his hand, and the second time she talks about how she is saving money trying to get enough to open up a DnD location.


Doug Block
Tue 1 Apr 2008Link

If they sue you it could be invaluable publicity for your doc. The bigger problem might be getting E&O (Errors & Ommissions) insurance should you want a broadcast. But I think Chris is right, can't imagine it being a huge isssue. You should join up as a full D-Word member , Tara, and ask again in the Legal topic.


Sam Rabeeh
Thu 3 Apr 2008Link

Hi everyone,

I have several treatments and not sure how to proceed.

My main concern is copyright as I want to develop the ideas further. This isn't documentary related but I hope some of you will come to bat with some opinions.

Can I copyright a treatment? Do I need to develop the ideas further into a script and submit it to the Canadian Copyright office at that point?

I want to share the treatments so I can promote their development. How do I protect myself?

I have so many other questions but I'll leave it at,

Cheers,


John Burgan
Thu 3 Apr 2008Link

Yes, you can copyright a treatment, it doesn't need to be a full script.

Be aware, however, that you can't copyright an idea.
Edited Thu 3 Apr 2008 by John Burgan

Robert Goodman
Thu 3 Apr 2008Link

There is no point in copyrighting treatments. If you are writing a fiction film script and are a novice, you need a killer script sample. That means a full well-realized script. If you find people who like that they'll pay you to write treatments or to develop a two paragraph pitch into a treatment.

Ideas are a dime a dozen in Hollywood. Execution is all.


Sam Rabeeh
Thu 3 Apr 2008Link

I should further elaborate. I wish to make these films myself. As you say Robert, execution is all. Some of the ideas I'm exploring for documentaries have crossed over into dramatic as I'm curious about using the tense "is happening" rather than "has happened".

I have no illusions about the daunting tasks that lie ahead but I know with diligence and and a stepped approach I will realize these in some way. My experience over the past 25 years has shown this in everything I do so this is no time to change my thinking.

How did other filmakers discuss/collaborate their ideas and treatments in the past? I'll use the example of Lucas who only had a treatment for "The Star Wars". I stress I'm not Lucas but to bring a project to realization using a treatment only is possible. I'm not a script writer I want to make documentaries and films that hopefully communicate the ideas i envision.

John, when you say the idea can't be copyrighted, can we use an example? Is Indiana Jones, handsome archeologist professor saves the world from nazis by finding the lost ark, the idea?

So I can make a handsome, professor archeologist just as long as names, places and ark are not the same?

I apologize for the broken writing but I'm wee tired.

Cheers,


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